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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Herr Hammer Draken
151
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Posted - 2012.11.05 07:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is really a matter of scale. A frieghter can carry so much in value before it becomes a gankable target. As EVE runs longer in the time line more players end up with more wealth. At some point frieghters end up carrying more and more wealth simply because it takes too many trips to haul all of that which needs to be moved. It is a function of the longevity of EVE.
In the early days nobody had the wealth to stress a frieghters capacity. The carrying capacity of ships in eve has not grown with the game. Although some changes have been made like jump ships to make traveling easier over long distances.
So in the end a cap to frieghters acts as a max limit to wealth. As players over load the wealth and these frieghters get ganked EVE losses wealth as it drains away. Maybe that is a good thing for EVE. In the end the game design is in the hands of CCP.
Do we see these ships grow with eve or not? Time will tell.
Herr Hammer Draken
"The Amarr Prophet" |
Herr Hammer Draken
151
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 07:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:Fit a tank, use orcas corporation cargo hold. Do not think that a "Faster" ship is always better. Use a webbing alt to instantly align and remain in transit as long as possible. Use couriers to take the risk. Use an ECM alt, understand typical gank areas and do not overload cargo holds unless necessary.
Don't move cargo in obvious ships - Ex: Cloaky Crane (Unless you know how to use it properly), Interceptor (Hurrr I'm so fast they'll never see my blueprints!), Noobship "I'm cheap and they'll never expect my shuttle or noobship of having billions in isk BWUHAHAHAHA".
If you are moving faction modules, considering fitting them to your ship - This way if you are cargo scanned and not ship scanned they will be unaware of the real value of your ship (This is subjective)
Oh by the way orcas corp hold becomes scanable after the winter update. Back to double wraping which also works for frieghters by the way.
Herr Hammer Draken
"The Amarr Prophet" |
Herr Hammer Draken
151
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 08:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would have to agree with that risk is chance based. If their is no chance in the equation then it is a measurable and known cost of doing business as every time the outcome can be determined with 100% certainty.
Herr Hammer Draken
"The Amarr Prophet" |
Herr Hammer Draken
152
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Posted - 2012.11.05 09:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
If a player wants to add risk to a gankers life then double wrap everything. Send three frieghters for every cargo load. Two of the frieghters will have zero value double wraped contracts. Only one of the three will have a cargo with value.
Then does that one frieghters cargo value = its cost to gank it, or equal the cost to gank all three frieghters? Risk = chance of the unknown.
Herr Hammer Draken
"The Amarr Prophet" |
Herr Hammer Draken
152
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 09:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:If a player wants to add risk to a gankers life then double wrap everything. Send three frieghters for every cargo load. Two of the frieghters will have zero value double wraped contracts. Only one of the three will have a cargo with value.
Then does that one frieghters cargo value = its cost to gank it, or equal the cost to gank all three frieghters? Risk = chance of the unknown. or just don't stick over 1bn in your cargo hold because most gankers won't even bother trying to pop your freighter for that little potential reward. especially if it's 1bn isk worth of trit.
That works as well, but the assumption is as of right now that any double wraped cargo is worth ganking because it is double wraped.
So until a few ganks happen on double wraped frieghters with zero value there will imply no risk to the double wraped cargo gank.
The known value of the cargo if below ganking value is still not adding risk, as it just defines the value as not being worth the cost of the gank. No risk in this case. It simply is not worth the effort.
So why do I say it like this?
Assume you want to ship 66 billion. And it fits in one frieghter. You can send 66 frieghters of 1 billion each and be safe.
Or you can send 3 frieghters one has 66 billion the other two zero all double wraped. So the values are unknown.
If a zero value frieghter gets ganked it has to get posted to a kill board to become known that this is occuring.
That is how risk gets known and becomes calculated. By the kill boards.
Herr Hammer Draken
"The Amarr Prophet" |
Herr Hammer Draken
152
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 10:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
i am willing to wager good isk that if you asked most freighter pilots, the majority wouldn't know what double wrapping is. not unless hauling is their primary activity in eve or they're active on the forums. the regular freighter pilots that don't fly for places like push/red frog etc or frequent the forums are probably the majority (i'd put money on that).
so yes, any thing double wrapped is generally worth ganking. even sending 3 freighters and only one of them having cargo in would just result in 3 freighter ganks. (i'd put good isk on that, too).
however, if you have 66bn isk to haul, i think at that point you're a fool if you try and haul it yourself. the time it takes to haul it safely is too great an opportunity cost to do it yourself, and the risk of hauling it all at once is far, far too high. at that point i'd just outsource it. i'd gladly pay red frog/push to take it 1bn isk at a time, they have a whole fleet of freighters who will do those 66 1bn isk trips in the time it'd take you to do a fraction of those trips. also the cost they ask is arguably nothing in comparison to the fact that you have 66bn isk of assets sitting in a hangar some where.
it doesn't really make sense on any level to try and haul that much stuff yourself.
I agree with most of that. However the ganks tend to be only strong enough to kill one frieghter at a time. So three at once is a viable tactic. Very unlikely that a ganker fleet will have enough ships on hand to kill all three at the same time. Unless in Jita space.
And if they kill the wrong one and its value is zero and it gets posted to a kill board well you know where that is going.
Like I said this is risk based for both parties. If you do not want any risk it can be avoided by breaking the cargo down into smaller chunks. However then do not double wrap it as you will lose some of it if it is double wraped. The assumption being double wraped is worth ganking always until proven wrong by kill mail.
Herr Hammer Draken
"The Amarr Prophet" |
Herr Hammer Draken
152
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 12:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Filling a hauling ship up with a massive assortment of low volume, low-ISK, crap items (like dancers and spirits) to minimize the odds that something valuable will drop. lol wrong, the chance of drop is still 50%. You go item for item and roll a dice for each item in hold. For 1-3 no drop, for 4-6 its a drop. So if you roll the dice for a particular item its 50% chance, regardless if there are further 3748 items you will roll the dice for.
So be risky put all 66 billion in one contract on the frieghter. And that is all that is on the frieghter. 50% chance it drops or nothing drops.
Now for the guy that claims he will only attack a frieghter when he can profit. Will he take a 50% chance to come away with nothing at all and ruin his streak or is the 66 billion in that one contract enough for him to take the chance and gank it.
Then if nothing droped would he admit it, that he lost isk on that gank? We already know for a fact that if the 66 billion does drop it will make the kill mail list.
Herr Hammer Draken
"The Amarr Prophet" |
Herr Hammer Draken
152
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 12:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Filling a hauling ship up with a massive assortment of low volume, low-ISK, crap items (like dancers and spirits) to minimize the odds that something valuable will drop. lol wrong, the chance of drop is still 50%. You go item for item and roll a dice for each item in hold. For 1-3 no drop, for 4-6 its a drop. So if you roll the dice for a particular item its 50% chance, regardless if there are further 3748 items you will roll the dice for. So be risky put all 66 billion in one contract on the frieghter. And that is all that is on the frieghter. 50% chance it drops or nothing drops. Now for the guy that claims he will only attack a frieghter when he can profit. Will he take a 50% chance to come away with nothing at all and ruin his streak or is the 66 billion in that one contract enough for him to take the chance and gank it. Then if nothing droped would he admit it, that he lost isk on that gank? We already know for a fact that if the 66 billion does drop it will make the kill mail list. yes he would. the expected cargo pay out would be the total value of the cargo multiplied by the drop chance. as per the statistical formula for calculating the expected value, expected value = sum(probability * value). that puts the freighter at an expected 33bn isk pay out. hence if he ganks enough freighters, he will always be "winning". edit to correct a formula i rushed because my lunch was burning...
Ok 2 frieghters fly into a system.
One has 4 billion in one contract the other 4 billion value of 50 items. 50 chances for stuff to drop as opposed to one chance for everything to drop.
The ganker has only enough ships on hand to kill one of them.
Which does he choose?
Herr Hammer Draken
"The Amarr Prophet" |
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